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This transcript has not been edited — please listen to the podcast to confirm any statements made by speakers.
Brian Shields:, CEO & Co-Founder of Sprinter:
Welcome to future at work. I'm Brian shields. This is Alex Ford-Carther, we're the cofounders of sprinter, we're going to talk a lot about the transition of web two to web three, and kind of how your business can evolve with new technology to kind of meet the needs of your company and your clients. So Alex, what are we gonna talk about today?
Alex Ford-Carther, Chief Technology Officer & Co-Founder of Sprinter:
So why don't we first kind of chat a little bit, kind of give some definitions, like what web two is what web three is?
Shields:
Sure, yeah. So like web two, like it's kind of just traditional software, as we know, it kind of like a b2b software as a service. You know, like software used to come in a box on a shelf, you know, I remember when the internet used to come in, like a disk in the mail, right. And so then we move to kind of software as a service, and everyone's just paying for, you know, monthly subscriptions, and everyone's kind of building their enterprise suite and kind of figuring out what their tech stack is. And so with web three, the main difference is that like, the actual users of the software can actually take ownership of the platforms that they're using. So when web two, you'd have like, these big conglomerate tech companies, or Microsoft's, you know, they're quick into the world, building the software, they're like, everyone starts to use actually run their business, and everyone becomes kind of dependent on these third party software's. And that's how you can get these guys like Larry Ellison, these guys in the running Oracle, and they're like these huge businesses, just like you're piling up cash, like the VCs that are funding these businesses get rich. And then eventually, like the, you know, the banks have taken public, and make a ton of money. But the actual people that are building them don't necessarily benefit from that. And like you might get like employee stock options or stuff like that. But like, you're not really getting like a big ownership stake in terms of like how the business is being run, or how the tools are being built. And with web three, we're seeing much more of like a shift to like an ownership society in the internet. And like that, you hear people talking about how like we're rebuilding the internet from the ground up, I really do think that that is pretty accurate. And so you're having these people that are actually building the tools where they themselves and other people that they collaborate with are going to be able to control how those tools are used, and how they are governed and how like those new features are being developed. And so I think with, you know, web three, kind of like an ownership society of the internet, like you're allowing people to kind of take sovereignty over the tools that they're using to run their businesses in a way that's going to, you know, at the end of the day, free them up to be more creative and be more innovative. And because they're not going to be dependent on some of these third party tools that were kind of like the foundations of web two. And so I think that's what I'm the big shift that's been happening with Blockchain. And kind of like, as you know, crypto and blockchain tools have kind of evolved over the last decade, we're seeing a lot more of a focus on like your user experience, and, you know, kind of solving problems. And for a long time, Blockchain was kind of like a, you know, a problem in search of a solution. And now, I think people are kind of like figuring out, like, what they can build with. And that's what I think is like, really exciting about the kind of where we are right now. And kind of like the future of work. Yeah. So
Ford-Carther:
Like, when we were growing up, I think, you know, Facebook, and Google kind of had just started like, what would Google have looked like, if it was like a web three company?
Shields:
Yeah, I mean, yeah, just in general, like, the way companies are being funded. And the way these new products are being built is just fundamentally different. You know, it's not, it's not a, you know, a couple of guys on Sand Hill Road anymore. And like that ship, you know, we started that shift start happening with, like, you know, the ICO movement, and then some of the NFT funding that we saw over the past few years within the crypto space, but it just in general, I mean, ever since the Jobs Act. In the US, you know, we've had a lot more of that kind of democratization of capital and, you know, opening up investment opportunities, as well as, you know, just contribution opportunities in terms of supporting projects and missions that you know, people believe in. I think it's been fascinating to watch.
Ford-Carther:
So, speaking of ICOs, you and I kind of jumped into blockchain like 2017 kind of right when it started really exploded, and kind of what was your, like, Aha moment, like getting into web three?
Shields:
Yeah, no, well, just in general, I think and once we really started seeing what you could do with Ethereum, at back in 2017, sauce, you know, everyone started building upon it, and it wasn't just like, going out. And like, some of these get rich, quick scams that were like obviously, like, you know, the pump and dumps and stuff like that, that like a lot of savvy people were able to stay away from, but it did kind of, like bring a lot of bad actors into the space. But a lot of that stuff gets flushed out. And I think that, like we were speaking on panels back then talking about how, like, you know, because, you know, I came from a banking world. So it's kind of like the idea that like, listen, like there's, you know, securities fraud, like, charges don't go away for like five years and like you're gonna see the stuff. So in 2022, about, like, what's going on now, and like we've seen that come to fruition. And the SEC actually just took some action the other day, about nine different coins that were traded on exchanges that are deemed to be securities, they're saying why they're deemed to be securities. And our question is like, but why aren't you going after any of the exchanges yet that you're talking about the issuers and, but not like the actual exchanges and so like, that's gonna get kind of hairy as we see that play out. But again, like this kind of dance between innovation and regulation is pretty standard, especially within financial technology. And, you know, we saw this one, you know, futures options were introduced. And like, you know, we saw it when, you know, tech stock, tech stocks started going crazy and like, and now we've seen it with like, all the kind of the beam stock movement as well. So like the activity within crypto, so it always kind of evolves. But I think that, again, like the idea that people are, you know, beginning to take more ownership over, you know, the products of the future is going to be the trend that continues.
Ford-Carther:
Yeah, no, that's good point. I guess for me, like, really, web three moment for me was, like smart contracts, and really starting to look through because I'm a product guy. So you know, I don't know if we kind of talked about our roles. But you know, for us, like I lead the product team, so making sure that our platform is developed properly and designed accordingly. So once I kind of looked into like smart contracts, and kind of how they could help expedite delivery of what we were doing, like it was just a huge moment for us, and made a lot of sense for our business model. And obviously, everybody kind of will have their own web three, aha moment, whether it's NF T's or smart contracts, or, you know, whatever the next type of token is, I think everybody will have their own moment. So kind of being early in 2017, you know, kind of right is stuff was starting to bubble was was cool. You know, I think for us, you know, after 2017 Once we really started getting into blockchain, and we started kind of looking around to see, you know, where we could take it, you know, finding a group like CB labs, or CVC, and kind of exploring kind of the real players in the space, kind of talk through like, what it was like, kind of as we grew sprinter, and our business kind of where we where we started to take it back, though.
Shields:
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's what's fun, right? Because it was, you know, it was basically, you know, chat rooms and telegram groups, and, you know, people on Twitter, and then it was, you know, meetup was still flying because it hadn't been bought by WeWork yet, right. So like, we were all working at a co working spaces and Fulton market, and we're doing all these meetups, we're starting to be people in like the Chicago crypto community that we're trying to talk to with, you know, some of the Midwestern investors that weren't necessarily kind of like hip to blockchain yet. And so we started looking further afield and like, so that's how we came across the group out of crypto Valley. So CPVC, we saw them kind of like, you know, the, the heart of this ecosystem that they were building, and like really seeing a lot of growth over in the European crypto market. And that, you know, we kind of got involved with them, you know, we ended up moving over Switzerland, you know, connecting with, you know, other entrepreneurs in the blockchain space, you know, building out our team over in Ukraine, like, you know, starting to kind of build that distributed team around the world. And really, you know, it's just fascinating, because it really was like, you know, kind of going from like, okay, these are like people talking on the internet about like, cool, like internet money and like, this, this will be really fun. But like, let's see what we can do with programmable money. And then it started getting into like, okay, like, now we're actually talking like, this is coming off the internet and the real world, like people are getting together. And he really started to see just the level of intelligence and passionate people had within the space, in terms of, you know, what the possibilities were, people are talking about insurance and real estate, and you know, and traveling all this different stuff. And so it's been really fascinating just to meet all these different people and kind of, like, see what everyone's working on. And you can really kind of tell in a bear market specifically, like who the builders are, and it kind of like who the show people are. And like, you know, I think that, you know, the people that have been able to kind of keep their nose to the grindstone like, stand the test of time are building some of the most interesting stuff out there.
Ford-Carther:
Yeah, I think that was awesome. Just being over there. And like, really diving into the community. And I think that's one of the big things that the first one went through from web two is just the community of people that are passionate about the projects and passionate about the space, you really start to see that come to fruition. And so
Shields:
It's like, nobody went to college for crypto, right. So like the idea that like, there's no like one university, there's no college town, there's no like batch of professors, where everyone lives in the same neighborhood. And so you've seen these kind of like, epicenters, like, evolve organically. So I think what you saw like in crypto Valley, and like, you've seen what they've been able to build, like kind of their ecosystem around the world. It's they really did start organically, it was like, there was like a natural interest in the community to build this stuff. And they wanted to be able to kind of like, harness this community to see what they could collaborate and build. You've seen that around the world. You know, like, you know, whether we were in we just went down to permission list in Palm Beach where consensus in Austin, we've NFT, NYC in New York, and like the level of passion and innovation and creativity that we're seeing in the space, from, you know, from from technology, and finance and finance and defy to, you know, to fashion in the metaverse and games and gaming and game fi and all that stuff. It's a It's really fascinating to see. And like you said, it's not in any one city having like a real monopoly over this industry. I think that you get people from all around the world that are really working together with everyone, everywhere all at once. And that's fascinating.
Ford-Carther:
Yeah, I mean, web3 is so new that you can kind of let it be what you want it to be. And if you're into fashion and FTEs like that's your web three, if you're into, you know, tokens and Trading that your web three. And so it's really kind of so new that you can really mold it however you want it. I
Shields:
I think a lot of people that might be out there listening or watching like that, that haven't actually gone out to any of these events. And like many of these people in person, like you really might be like having a conversation with somebody from JP Morgan and Dolce and Gabbana at the same event. And everyone's talking about crypto and like, it's kind of like the idea of like convergence. And like, if you're thinking about it as like, a singularity or whatever, but it's like, you know, all the technology is coming together. And like we've talked for years about, like, every company is a technology company, and every company is a media company. And so it's like the idea that like, whatever your product is, like, you need to be harnessing technology and media to be able to get your message out, you need to be able to, to leverage the technology to like, you know, optimize your business and streamline your processes. But now, like, the convergence of all this stuff together, where it's like, Okay, now, the finance, technology and the marketing are all like one. And so whether it's, you know, gaming, which is, you know, bigger than, you know, music and movies combined, or, you know, fashion now and like the idea of like, what do you wear to a party and the metaverse starts to become a thing that people are gonna care about, and especially when you're talking about and that just like Gen Z, but like, even like the younger kids, you know, and you're, you know, I think that that's going to be a really big thing in terms of like the next 1020 years of like, what that's gonna look like, like, this isn't gonna be the MTV generation. Right?
Ford-Carther:
They better start collecting NFT now. Yeah, I mean, that's why we're doing the podcast, at some point, we're a tech company, then he's become a media company, right. And so making sure that people understand why we built what we built, what the focus is for sprinter. How we can kind of ingrain ourselves within the web three spaces is kind of why we're here. You know, to that point, you know, talk to like, why we chose web three as the model for sprinter and why we why we think it makes sense going forward.
Shields:
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like, I think that we both wanted to build a great product. And we didn't want to run the business forever. I think that the idea of being able to build a product and being able to invite in a Community of Agencies and individual contributors that really wanted to kind of collaborate and take this product to the next level, and like, treat it as a platform that can really be an operating system for all of our businesses, that everybody can kind of collaborate, you know, collectively govern is fascinating. I think that our ability to kind of drive the direction of the architecture and the user interface, and the user experience at the beginning of the product development was the right path. But I do think that in terms of our overall goal of decentralizing governance, and making sure that we don't just go and you know, sell it out to a bunch of VCs, and we don't try to go traditional finance route, but actually giving it out to the people so that they can govern it themselves, is very true to both like our individual philosophies in terms of software development, but also just like the general movement of the way that software will be built and sold. So like, we're not like I said, it's no longer boxes on a shelf, it's not this in the mail, and you're not just going to be paying a monthly subscription, you're actually going to have an ownership model where you're gonna be a member, and you're gonna be able to contribute to the governance of the project. And so I think that that's going to be pretty interesting. And I think that, you know, our ability to, you know, kind of pull from our experience from, you know, logistics and operations and product design and banking and capital markets and marketing, to make sure that we can kind of do this within the regulatory environment in American a bit, make sure that we can kind of help to lay a foundation lay a path for other businesses to follow in terms of what you could do with that, I think it's going to be pretty valuable.
Ford-Carther:
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think. You know, for us, I think giving it to the people, right, like we were building something that we know, we needed, when we started our company way back when we know that what we're solving for the issues that we're trying to address with, with the approach that we've taken. We know a lot of other agency owners, you know, freelancers? Well, creatives, business owners, whoever needs this product, we've built features into it that makes sure we solve for those problems. And so if we give it to the community, the community can get out there faster than we probably could just as our as a couple of guys, you know, raising money. So for us, making sure that people get what we built in, keep it to ourselves is kind of where we're at with that,
Shields:
like you said, it's like, yeah, what we were always trying to build what we wish we had when we started, right. So it's like, you know, we used to when we started, we use like 15 different pieces of software, like we'd be paying subscription fees for like everything, and I'll be going to these different companies, were early adopters, and a bunch of future unicorn companies that we told all of our friends nobody ever gave. No, nobody ever gave me like a free month of these software's let alone like gave me a choice in terms of like how the the features of the roadmap should be or anything like that. And so I do think that that's gonna be like, the general transition terms of how software is being built.
Ford-Carther:
I think they wrote a case study on one piece of software I use, they wrote a case study on how we use it to success and then they went out and raised like $100 million, you know, off of our case study.
Shields:
But yeah, no, I mean, I definitely think that. For us, it was basically about how can we automate a lot of our business just so that we can optimize the efficiency of our own operation and then it was, okay, well, now if we're building a self driving car Like what would happen if we gave the keys to everybody else. And so the idea of actually having like a single platform where you can basically run your entire business like soup to nuts, with all your tasks, management, time tracking, and payment flows, and like run it all through smart contracts, like as your counterparty risk, so that you could work with people all around the world, and not need to worry about deliverables being met or anything like that. You know, like you said, like, a lot of that was, you know, we were trying to, you know, build solutions and build features that were solving problems that we ourselves faced as agency owners. And so like, we spent years kind of like eating our own dog food, like optimizing that, and getting it to the point where we were happy enough to like release the product.
Ford-Carther:
So this specific topic is definitely about kind of web two and web three. So I want to kind of first kind of talk a little bit switching gears a little bit, let's, let's talk about some of the problems of web two. And they kind of mentioned some of those. Let's dive a little deeper on that. And then we'll kind of talk through maybe some of the solutions that web three brings. So first, you know, talk to the web to business model with like, transactions and data extraction, and kind of what what that model looks like for web two. Yeah,
Shields:
I think there's the the two different versions that you're seeing big problems with, it's like, he like ad supported and data driven, right. So it's like if anything's free, or the product, and if it's ad driven, like, you know, it's about the attention economy is about, like, you know, making sure your eyeballs are on the product. And like, we just saw Snapchat, just like, you know, totally blow their numbers and like, drop, like, 20% yesterday, so like, you know, this, you know, timestamp that for the market. But the, I mean, I just think that you're seeing the slow death of the ad driven internet, I think that people are going to be paying for ad free space, I think that people are gonna be subscribing to content that they believe in, I think you're seeing that already with like the Patreon models, and you know, where Yeah, substack and you're seeing it with just in generally teachable is another great example of that. And so you're being able to see people that are the content creators are taking ownership of their own audiences. And it's kind of like the idea that like, all you need is like 1000, true fans. Maybe if you have that 1000 true fans, and they're being able to support you like whether you're an artist, or an entrepreneur, like a sculptor, or a business owner or an architect, you can find your audience and being able to communicate your mission and your values, and not just like the what you're doing, but the how and the why. And making sure that you're kind of coming across to people that you know that you are competent, you know, what you're doing, and you know, that you have, you know, built something that they're interested in, I think that's going to be really powerful.
Ford-Carther:
Yeah, I think to what the web two model is, you know, a lot of it's backed by VC funding. And so it's it's rapid growth at the expense of the user, you know, how do we get to X amount of ARR? And how many months and how we can get to the next round and at what, you know, at what costs and that typically as at the cost of the user, whether it's taking their data or just providing terrible user experiences or not caring about their particular individual needs? I think, you know, the web to version of I'm sorry, yes, obviously, you know, just kind of keeping edit at the user growth level. You know, maybe talk to some of that.
Shields:
Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely think you see growth at the expense of experience has definitely been the case. I think that, you know, if we had companies that were building what people wanted, we'd have an added button on Twitter. I think that's, you know, there's nothing inherently wrong with venture capital. There's nothing inherently wrong with traditional web to business model. But I do think that, if you're opening it up a little bit more to, you know, kind of like a stakeholder capitalism model, where like the users and the art and your and your clients and are all kind of like part and parcel to the overall business itself, I think that that is going to allow for a more holistic view over the product itself, right. And like, we've talked about this before, it's like the idea that like, you can kind of have like an autour theory and software development, like someone's the author of the software, like someone's designing the, you know, the user experience, or architecting, the platform, even when you have a team, like you're still you know that that team is then the author, right. And so I think that, that only goes so far. And at some point, you do need to not just, you know, open up for like user testing, and AV testing, but actually just like talk to people and like ask them and bring them into the conversation and treat them as like part of the process. And I think that you see the best businesses across industries do that. Time and time again. So I don't see why it should be any different technology.
Ford-Carther:
So, you know, with that in mind, like, how is web three going to kind of change that? And, you know, maybe talk to the user experience of web three, and how that might be different from what to and how that can kind of solve that problem?
Shields:
Yeah, I think the user experience is still been the problem. You know, the cool products now like, especially on the exchange side of things, like some of the bigger exchanges are just straight up providing a better user experience to the trading audience. So the business audience of the defi crowd. And I think that that's obviously a huge amount of the capital is going to continue to move like at the end of the day, like this is, you know, a lot of this is, you know, commodities and securities in terms of digital assets. And so you're gonna continue to draw that kind of, you know, financial institutional crowd as the industry continues to evolve. But I do think on like, the more creative side of things like, you know, the art and the fashion and the gaming and everything like that, I think that that is going to be super interesting because like, I can't even imagine, like, what you could accomplish if you were like, you know, if you're like an overachieving kid going into college, and you've got a MacBook Pro and an iPhone right now, like you're a broadcast studio, sure, you know, you're a software Studio, you can collaborate with people all around the world. And there's really no limitations to what you can do. And so the and then the idea of, oh, and because of, you know, we have three business models and crypto finance and, and, you know, the NFT, kind of, like, you know, membership driven software models and stuff like that, I think that you're gonna see a lot more kind of creativity unleashed. I think, you know, we've talked about the idea that talent isn't localized. And that only exists in a vacuum, where we think that, you know, the kind of traditional education system is the only way people can get educated which hasn't been the case. Since, you know, the last 10,15, 20 years even as we've just seen the growth of broadband everything like you already seeing this and like Africa and like, you know, like other kind of like developing nations around the world where they basically have just skipped over broadband and gone right to mobile web. And because of that, like they're able to seal up